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marline
8th March 2009, 07:15
Waarom het God toegelaat dat Johannes die Doper onthoof is? Ek het op die net die antwoord gekry dat sy taak op aarde klaar was, en dat hy die weg na die doderyk vir Jesus moes voorberei, net soos hy ook die doop vir Hom moes voorberei. Nou weet ek nie of dit net bespiegeling is nie, want ek kon nie bevesting kry hiervoor nie. Kan julle dalk help?

Ou Sanna
8th March 2009, 14:21
Waarom het God toegelaat dat Johannes die Doper onthoof is? Ek het op die net die antwoord gekry dat sy taak op aarde klaar was, en dat hy die weg na die doderyk vir Jesus moes voorberei, net soos hy ook die doop vir Hom moes voorberei. Nou weet ek nie of dit net bespiegeling is nie, want ek kon nie bevesting kry hiervoor nie. Kan julle dalk help?

Hi Marline
Ek weet nie van die feit dat Johannes se taak op aarde volbring was nie, maar ek verstaan nie die gedeelte van "hy die weg na die doderyk vir Jesus moes voorberei.." nie, sal graag wil sien wat hulle daar te sÍ het. Ek sal tien teen een nie jou vraag kan beantwoord nie, maar ek wil vir jou iets gee om oor te wonder...

John's first encounter with Jesus was while both of them were still in their mother's wombs, at which time John, apparently recognizing his Saviour, leaped for joy:
Luk 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
Much later, while John is baptizing, he refers to Jesus as the "the Lamb Of God who takes away the sins of the world":
Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
And also as " The Son Of God":
Jhn 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
Jhn 1:35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
Jhn 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
Late still, John is thrown in prison from where he does not return alive. John's definite knowledge of Jesus as the Son of God and saviour of the world is explicitly contradicted by the below verses, in which the imprisoned John sends 2 of his disciples to ask Jesus if He is the one(coming), or do they look for someone else?
Luk 7:18 And the disciples of John shewed him of all these things.
Luk 7:19 And John calling [unto him] two of his disciples sent [them] to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
Luk 7:20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?Luk 7:21 And in that same hour he cured many of [their] infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many [that were] blind he gave sight.
Luk 7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.
Luk 7:23 And blessed is [he], whosoever shall not be offended in me.

Hoe lyk dit dan nou vir my of die Evangelie skrywers mekaar dan weerspreuk?
Volgens jou, dan het Johannes die Doper vir Jesus geken of nie?
Was Johannes die Doper seker dat die man wat wonder verrig het werklik Jesus was?

Groete
Ou Sanna

Stefanus
8th March 2009, 15:00
Waarom het God toegelaat dat Johannes die Doper onthoof is? Ek het op die net die antwoord gekry dat sy taak op aarde klaar was, en dat hy die weg na die doderyk vir Jesus moes voorberei, net soos hy ook die doop vir Hom moes voorberei. Nou weet ek nie of dit net bespiegeling is nie, want ek kon nie bevesting kry hiervoor nie. Kan julle dalk help?


Marline jou vraag sluit aan by Pionier se vraag:


Nou kom ons by die vraag: Hoekom het die Vader toegelaat dat dit met Sy Seun gebeur. Sou dit bloot wees sodat die wederopstanding kon plaasvind? Sou God dan nie 'n makliker pad gekies het vir sy seun nie?


Ek plaas dan ook Die Ou Man se antwoord op die vraag van Pionier want die implikasies hiervan bly dieselfde :-

Die Christus leer dat die Vader toelaat dat die onkruid saam met die koring opgroei. Hy tree dus nie prematuur op nie.

Ons aanvaar ook dat die mens 'n vrye wil het. Ek kan dus daagliks buite die wil van God optree en in hierdie lewe daarmee "wegkom". Die feit dat ek met handelinge buite die wil van God besig is, beteken dat ek dinge doen wat nie deel van God se opdrag is nie.

Die feit dat ek 'n vrye wil het en daarmee teen God kan handel is juis so deur God gewil. In Jesus se geval, was dit God se wil om nie op daardie stadium in te gryp nie. Dit maak dit egter nie God se opdrag nie.



Daarom kan ons nie se dat God verantwoordelik is vir die "wegneem" van 'n lewe nie.

Liefdegroete,
Stefanus

Ou Sanna
8th March 2009, 15:30
Waarom het God toegelaat dat Johannes die Doper onthoof is? Ek het op die net die antwoord gekry dat sy taak op aarde klaar was, en dat hy die weg na die doderyk vir Jesus moes voorberei, net soos hy ook die doop vir Hom moes voorberei. Nou weet ek nie of dit net bespiegeling is nie, want ek kon nie bevesting kry hiervoor nie. Kan julle dalk help?

Hi Marline
"...net soos hy ook die doop vir Hom moes voorberei." Het betrekking:

Hier is ook 'n interessante stukkie oor Johannes die Doper en Jesus:
Why did John Baptize Jesus?
John baptized for repentance:
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:
Since Jesus was supposedly without sin(ek sit dit tussen hakkies, want dit is belangrik later), He had nothing to repent of. The fact that He was baptized by John has always been an embarrassment to the church. The gospels offer no explanation for Jesus' baptism, apart from the meaningless explanation given in:
Mat 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer [it to be so] now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Other passages, which indicate that Jesus did not consider himself sinless, are also an embarrassment to the church:
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good(righteous)? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God.
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good(righteous)? ? none [is] good(righteous)?, save one, [that is], God.
Luke who claim to be chronological:
Luk 1:3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus
Tries to gove the impression that John did not baptize Jesus. Luke's account of Jesus' baptism occurs after the account of John's imprisonment:
Luk 3:20 Added yet this above all, that he shut up John in prison.
Luk 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

Weereens is daar duidelike weersprekinge, maar in hierdie geval meer dan as net of Johannes die doper geglo het dat dit Jesus was en ook tweedens of Johannes regtig vir Jesus gedoop het al dan nie?

Groete
Ou Sanna

marline
8th March 2009, 17:13
Baie dankie vir julle insette, ons het die bespreking in die Bybelskool gehad, en dit toe as "huiswerk" gekry. Ek het op die net rondgekrap, en wou graag ander se menings ook hoor.