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Thread: Is Jesus die Wysheid van God

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Is Jesus die Wysheid van God

    Quote Originally Posted by Antje De waal View Post
    Hy gaan nie baie daarvan hou nie.
    Antje, naand,

    Jesus verduidelik "net soos in die Hemele, net so op die aarde"

    Jy is oortuig daar is net een God, wat jy seg soos dit Hom pas manlik is of vroulik soos dit Hom behaag op die oomblik.... jou opinie word gerespekteer.

    Net een vragie... waar pas die Drie Enige God dan in hierdie prentjie van jou een God? Ek verstaan dit nie mooi nie...

    groetnis
    knipmes

  2. #12
    Member Antje De waal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Jesus die Wysheid van God

    Hey

    Jip een God drie persone.

    Die verssie wat julle so graag aan haal oor wysheid wat by die hek staan en roep lees net onder die en kyk so gaan julle nou vir my se daar is nog n vroulike god wat nou valsheid genoem word so vir elke vroulike benaming in die bybel gaan julle nou n ander vrou in die hemel sit?

    of is dit nou die evil twin?
    Ek weet met wie ek te doen het ... PC van der walt

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    Mod Die Ou Man's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Jesus die Wysheid van God

    Quote Originally Posted by Antje De waal View Post
    Hey

    Jip een God drie persone.
    Dus, drie Gode. (Of drie "persone" soos jy dit stel.)

    En die drie Gode is Een, soos wat ek en jy ook met Hulle een kan wees. Dit is volgens die Christus se woorde.

    Die Een God is Jahwe, die Enige HERE.

    Die Ou Testamentiese term Een God sluit die Christus uit. Moses en Abraham het nie 'n Drie-Enige God of drie Gode aanbid nie, maar die Enige HERE (Jahweh).

    Die Roomse formule van: "Hulle is Drie. Hulle is Een. Hulle is Drie in Een" poog bloot om die teenstrydigheid van die Ou Testamentiese konsep van 'n Enige HERE (Jahweh) en die Roomse konsep van "die Heilige Gees en Jesus is ook Gode" te oorbrug.

    Die Drie in Een formule is ontleen uit die Egiptiese drie-eenheid van Osiris, Isis en Horus.

    Liefde groete.

    Die Ou Man

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    Default Is Jesus die Wysheid van God

    Quote Originally Posted by Antje De waal View Post
    Jip een God drie persone.

    Antje hier volg 'n paar gedagtes rondom die onderwerp, dalk gee die vir jou insig oor die ontstaan en die mening van die "een God drie persone" of "trinity".




    The "Shield of the Trinity"
    or "Scutum Fidei" diagram
    of traditional Western
    Christian symbolism.
    Jesus frequently referred to the "Father" as God as distinct from himself, but also discussed "The Holy Spirit" as a being distinct from either God the Father or Jesus himself. "These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." John 14:25-26 In this passage, Jesus portrays the Father sending the Holy Spirit – that is the Father and the Holy Spirit are two distinctly different persons, and portrays both the Father and the Holy Spirit as distinct from Jesus himself. Thus even apart from whether Jesus was God, Jesus declares that the Father and the Holy Spirit are two different persons, both of them divine.

    These questions were hotly debated over the ensuing centuries, and mainstream Christianity resolved the issues by drawing up creeds.

    The holy trinity in a French miniature
    from the 14th century.
    (The Nordisk familjebok)
    As the concept of trinity is attributed to the Council of Nicaea. Some prominent Christians such as Unity minister Eric Butterworth stated that the Council of Nicaea was "a bitterly contested struggle, during which Arius got up to speak and Nicholas of Myra punched him in the nose". He describes this as a meeting concerning a "religion about Jesus" rather than the "religion of Jesus" as presented through Jesus's teachings.

    In 325, the Council of Nicaea adopted a term for the relationship between the Son and the Father that from then on was seen as the hallmark of orthodoxy; it declared that the Son is "of the same substance" (ὁμοούσιος) as the Father. This was further developed into the formula "three persons, one substance". The answer to the question "What is God?" indicates the one-ness of the divine nature, while the answer to the question "Who is God?" indicates the three-ness of "Father, Son and Holy Spirit".

    Saint Athanasius, who was a participant in the Council, stated that the bishops were forced to use this terminology, which is not found in Scripture, because the Biblical phrases that they would have preferred to use were claimed by the Arians to be capable of being interpreted in what the bishops considered to be a heretical sense. They therefore "commandeered the non-scriptural term homoousios ('of one substance') in order to "safeguard" the essential relation of the Son to the Father that had been denied."

    The Confession of the Council of Nicaea said little about the Holy Spirit. The doctrine of the divinity and personality of the Holy Spirit was developed by Athanasius (c 293 - 373) in the last decades of his life. He both defended and refined the Nicene formula. By the end of the 4th century, under the leadership of Basil of Caesarea, Gregory of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus (the Cappadocian Fathers), the doctrine had reached substantially its current form.

    The Trinity is defined as three persons in one Godhead, not one Person with three attributes (this would imply Modalism, which is defined as heresy in traditional Christian orthodoxy).






    Liefdegroete,
    Stefanus

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    Default Re: Is Jesus die Wysheid van God

    Dankie stefanus

    wat meer kan ek se. Dit beveg nog steeds nie die punt nie is Jesus soos bogenoemde skrif die wysheid van God want as hy is dan is daar n probleem met julle theorie nie waar nie? gaan kyk onder die hoe stem die witboek en die bybel ooreen of iets

    Dankie weer eens vir jou baie interesante insette

    Antje
    Ek weet met wie ek te doen het ... PC van der walt

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    Default Is Jesus die Wysheid van God

    Quote Originally Posted by Antje De waal View Post
    wat meer kan ek se. Dit beveg nog steeds nie die punt nie is Jesus soos bogenoemde skrif die wysheid van God

    Hello Antje,

    Nee, Jesus is die Seun van die Mens (Adam) soos wat hy telkemale self getuig het, die Wysheid soos gegee in Spreuke 8 is die Heilige Gees (Eva):

    En die engel antwoord en sê vir haar: Die Heilige Gees sal oor jou kom en die krag van die Allerhoogste sal jou oorskadu. Daarom ook sal die Heilige wat gebore word, Seun van God genoem word. Luk 1:35

    En Ek sal die Vader bid, en Hy sal julle ‘n ander Trooster gee om by julle te bly tot in ewigheid: Joh 14:16

    maar die Trooster, die Heilige Gees, wat die Vader in my Naam sal stuur, Sy sal julle alles leer en sal julle herinner aan alles wat Ek vir julle gesê het. Joh 14:26

    Die Hebreuse Bybel vertel vir ons van die Elohim - God die Vader, God die Moeder en God die Seun, die oudste seun (Adam) dogter (Eva) van God die Vader en God die Moeder, maar die verhaal word oorskadu deur die verhaal van die aangestelde heerser Jahweh (die HERE) van die fisiese volk Israel, in die Nuwe Testament volg die verhaal van Jesus (Abel) die seun van die Vader-koning (Adam) en Moeder (Eva).

    Selfs die Bybel verwys na die wederhelfte van die HERE in die ou testament, die priesterlike dogma het die egter nie goedgunstelik aanvaar nie:

    Asherah was worshipped in ancient Israel as the consort of El and in Judah as the consort of Yahweh and Queen of Heaven (the Hebrews baked small cakes for her festival):

    Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger. Jeremiah 7:17–18

    ... to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem ... Jeremiah 44:17

    Figurines of Asherah are strikingly common in the archaeological record, indicating the popularity of her cult from the earliest times to the Babylonian exile. More rarely, inscriptions linking Yahweh and Asherah have been discovered: an 8th century BCE ostracon inscribed "Berakhti et’khem l’YHVH Shomron ul’Asherato" was discovered by Israeli archeologists at Quntilat 'Ajrud (Hebrew "Horvat Teman") in the couse of excavations in the Sinai desert in 1975, prior to the Israeli withdrawal from this area. This translates as: "I have blessed you by YHVH of Samaria and His Asherah", or "...by our guardian and his Asherah", if "Shomron" is to be read "shomrenu". Another inscription, from Khirbet el-Kom near Hebron, reads: "Blessed be Uriyahu by Yahweh and by his Asherah; from his enemies he saved him!".

    Antje, wie is die Asherah wat die ou Israeliete aanbid het? voordat die priesterlike weergawe die Vrou uit die verhaal geskryf het, sodat die vrou as mindere beskou was en nie volgens die gemiddelde Israeliet nie eers waardig was om die ewige lewe te kon beerwe nie?


    Liefdegroete,
    Stefanus


    Astarte (from Greek Ἀστάρτη (Astártē)) is the name of a goddess as known from Northwestern Semitic regions, cognate in name, origin and functions with the goddess Ishtar in Mesopotamian texts. Another transliteration is ‘Ashtart; other names for the goddess include Hebrew עשתרת (transliterated Ashtoreth), Ugaritic ‘ṯtrt (also ‘Aṯtart or ‘Athtart, transliterated Atirat), Akkadian DAs-tar-tú (also Astartu) and Etruscan Uni-Astre (Pyrgi Tablets).

    According to scholar Mark S. Smith, Astarte may be the Iron Age (after 1200 BC) incarnation of the Bronze Age (to 1200 BC) Asherah.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Is Jesus die Wysheid van God

    Stefanus weer eens baie dankie vir jou insette, weereens jip dit maak sin baie sin.

    So kom ons neemaan daar isn vroulike god ens hoe verander dit dan ons daaglikse lewe ens?

    Ek stem saam daar is baie en ek bedoel baie aanhaalings in die bybel elf wat dalk kan of mag verwys na n vroulike deel ens an God. En ja soos aangehaal is die bybel teks daar is vir haar ook lofveese ens gegee. Ons weet ook dat die simple jode of isrealite ook maar lekker aan hulle aanneem gode gehang het ons weet ook dat hulle baie getrou aan baal was, ons moet ook onthou van waar hulle kom. So ja daar is baie sterk invloed van die pagan egiptiese goed so ook van baie ander plekke as jy kyk het die klomp lekker rond getrek en was hulle nogal baie in ander lande as slawe aangehou ens. N mens kan dan aaneem dat baie van die lande se gode ens soos die eng. sou se "rubbed of on them" .... en aaa die ewige vraag hoe waar is die bybel dan as ons aaneem dat so baie van die goed van ander lande deel was van hulle denke en handel. Daai vraag sal ek eendag aa God self moet vra, ek het besluit ek gaan soos n kind wees en vir nou blindweg glo aan GOD, en al my vra aan hom rig, want weet jy ek maak myself baie deer die dinges met my gesoek na antwoorde en werklik waar ek kry so waar antwoorde maar die wat ek wil hoor.

    Jesus, God, Die heilige gees, of die Seun van God, God die vader, God die moeder, of adam en eva die koning pa en ma wie weet ek weet net dit die God wat ek vanogend gesien het pas nie in eenige boks wat ek hom wil plaas nie! so ek het nou maar my ou boksies weg gepak en nou sit ek, as Die woord (bybel) God breathed is dan sal hy vir my die waarheid daar uithaal maak nie saak hoeveel invloed van ander is daar nie.

    Jy sien die bybel vra een ding van ons wees soos n kind nie kinderlik nie, maar soos n kind, God vra net dit vertrou in hom soos n kind in sy ma en pa en aan die wereld.


    ...................... Ek het wel gevind dat as ek n skruffie soek om my punt te bevestig ek dit sal kry maak nie saak wat die punt is nie............................................... .............


    So die bybel is vir my soos enige ander wapen in die wereld die wapen self is nie vir goed of kwaad gemaak nie ook is dit nie vanslef goed of evil nie maar dis waarvoor dit gebruik word wat die verskil maak nie waar nie?
    Ek weet met wie ek te doen het ... PC van der walt

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    Default Re: Is Jesus die Wysheid van God

    What beteken Sophia rerig waar as jy terug gaan na die oorspronlike tekse?

    Kan iemand my antwoord asb en dan ook wat betekne phronesis wat hou die twee inverband met mekaar.?
    Ek weet met wie ek te doen het ... PC van der walt

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Is Jesus die Wysheid van God

    Well daar is twee woorde wat in die bybel gebruik word vir wysheid, die een Sophia(4678) die ander phronesis (5428)

    Eerste kom ons kyk na Sophia

    Sophia - is used with refrence to...
    A) God Rom11:33, 1 Cor 1:21, 24; 2:7, eph 3:10, Rev7.12
    B) Christ matt13:54 , maek 6:2, luke2:40, 1 cor 1;30, col2 ;30
    C) Human wisdom (1) in spirual things luke 21:25; acts 6:3; 1 cor 2:6
    in the natural sphere matt 12 12:42; luke 11:31; acts 7:22
    in its most debased form jos 3:15 "earthly sensual devilish
    (demonical)

    Now lets look at Phronesis

    Phronesis isthe understanding , prudence, ie. a right use of phren "the mind" is translated to wisdom in Luke 1:17

    While sophia is the insight into the true natur of things Phronesis is the ability to descern mondes of action with a view to their results, while sophia is the theoretical, Phronesis is Practical (lightfoot) sunesis "understanding intelligence is the critical faculty; this and phronesis are praticular apllications of sophia

    make any sense to you?


    Ek weet met wie ek te doen het ... PC van der walt

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    Default Prudence

    Phronesis (Greek: φρόνησις) in Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics is the virtue of moral thought, usually translated "practical wisdom", sometimes as "prudence".
    Prudence
    Prudence, by Luca Giordano

    Prudence is the exercise of sound judgment in practical affairs. It is classically considered to be a virtue, and in particular one of the four Cardinal virtues (which are with the three theological virtues part of the seven virtues).

    The word comes from Old French prudence (13th century), from Latin prudentia (foresight, sagacity), a contraction of providentia, foresight. It is often associated with wisdom, insight, and knowledge. In this case, the virtue is the ability to judge between virtuous and vicious actions, not only in a general sense, but with regard to appropriate actions at a given time and place. Although prudence itself does not perform any actions, and is concerned solely with knowledge, all virtues had to be regulated by it. Distinguishing when acts are courageous, as opposed to reckless or cowardly, for instance, is an act of prudence, and for this reason it is classified as a cardinal (pivotal) virtue.

    Although prudence would be applied to any such judgment, the more difficult tasks, which distinguish a person as prudent, are those in which various goods have to be weighed against each other, as when a person is determining what would be best to give charitable donations, or how to punish a child so as to prevent repeating an offense.

    In modern English, however, the word has become increasingly synonymous with cautiousness. In this sense, prudence names a reluctance to take risks, which remains a virtue with respect to unnecessary risks, but when unreasonably extended (i.e. over-cautiousness), can become the vice of cowardice.

    In the Nicomachean Ethics, Aristotle gives a lengthy account of the virtue phronesis (Greek: ϕρονησιϛ), which has traditionally been translated as "prudence", although this has become increasingly problematic as the word has fallen out of common usage. More recently ϕρονησιϛ has been translated by such terms as "practical wisdom" or "practical judgment" or "rational choice."

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